Curse

draxynnic · Aug 13, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I've gotten through most of PvE using a sub-par class, one for which every other class can do whatever it does better, and I've managed just fine. Sure, a monk can heal better. An assassin can do more damage. A paragon does better protection. A Necromancer makes better use of my own Restoration and Channeling lines. But I can still get by PvE HM just fine, because it's good enough. (Recent spirit buff notwithstanding. That was a huge boost to Ritualists, but I managed perfectly well before it.)

Same goes for the Dervish.

Ah, but you did get that huge boost. The /D situation may not be as blatent as the /Rt situation, and I'm not sure it's as bad as Reaper makes it (I should probably do a comparative analysis sometime) but there's a lot of proverbial smoke...

Jin Of Stealth · Aug 13, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

...and I'm not sure it's as bad as Reaper makes it (I should probably do a comparative analysis sometime) but there's a lot of proverbial smoke...

I agree with you on that. The situation isn't that bad, but there definitely does need to be something to be done. The dervish just seems like it's the subpar class. It doesn't excell at using it's own weapon compared to other classes that use it, and it's unable to enchant juggle effectively, which is what it was designed to do. (This being from the pvp weekend event that introduced the class)

G4ymBoy · Aug 13, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

The dervish may not be as effective as a Warrior or Assassin, but is still very effective in PvE.

thank you! 12characters.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 13, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Zahr, I don't think you and people who have that viewpoint quite know what exactly we are saying we want out of dervishes. No one wants an OP class, and no one wants OP buffs.

You play a Ritualist, or so I'm assuming. Ritualists did quite good enough in PvE before their buff. They didn't need it because they did fine right?

Anyone with brains knows that the dervish is effective in PvE. The Ritualist was effective in PvE as well, and guess what? Necromancers did -their- job ten times better on every level, and spirit-spamming was a joke for PvE.

Now we can, in a sense, compare ritualists' need to be buffed to dervishes need to be buffed...

Ritualist: Necromancers did it better
Dervishes: Warriors and assassins to it much better.
Ritualists: Spirit spamming was useless, along with all those related skills
Dervishes: Enchantment juggling is useless, along with all those related skills.
Ritualists: only had a few good class-specific elites. (Spirit's strength?)
Dervishes: only has a few good class-specific elites. (Forms, which are pretty class specific, Arcane Zeal only usable in orders)

Now, -good enough- may be fine for you, but stop and understand that being outclassed by everything else makes other people rethink even bothering with the entire profession.

I know I for one took a look at Ritualists pre-buff and went "What's the point? If I wanted to do -that- I'd just make a necro.

and I look at dervishes and go "What's the point? I can just give my warrior or sin a scythe and be done with it."

and I'm SURE I'm not the only one who thinks like that.

Ritualists got buffed and they aren't OP, they are just more fun to play as and actually do good at what they are supposed to do. Anet has shown that they can do a good job at fixing a profession without breaking it, and I think that's really all we want out of a Dervish

tieing AoHM to mysticism would be a step in the right direction. The dervish skill buffs in the previous update kinda were, but not really since it's more abusable and wanted on secondary caster professions.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2009, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Well said, Axel.

Although the thought strikes me that you could also apply those criteria to Mesmers before you consider the ability to abuse PvE skills:

1) Necromancers are better at hexing, Necromancers and Elementalists are better at disabling Warriors (through mass Weakness and/or Blind) and Rangers are arguably better at disabling spellcasters through Daze. This is probably the weakest of the three, since Necromancers aren't so good at caster-hate and Rangers aren't as good at dishing out armour-ignoring damage thus giving the Mesmer a niche there, but it's hard to argue that Necromancers haven't muscle in on the Mesmer in a lot of places since release. However, while the Mesmer doesn't have so much of a mesmer secondary problem, this may be more because Mesmer skills simply aren't good enough to justify a Necromancer or Elementalist doing to them as was done to the Ritualist.
2) Energy denial is useless, along with all those related skills
3) Only has a few good class-specific elites (Mantra of Recovery? Outclassed by... lots of things, really, but especially AP. Even outside Fast Casting there's little worth taking, especially if you don't feel like trying to interrupt HM shortened casting time with human reflexes and lag).

MithranArkanere · Aug 17, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Yeah, I did just fine with my ritualist before, but it was slow and boring to play with them in PvE.

Now I can try many different builds and hav fun with them in PvE.

With dervishes, having less skills, it's even worse.

reaper with no name · Aug 17, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Zahr, I don't think you and people who have that viewpoint quite know what exactly we are saying we want out of dervishes. No one wants an OP class, and no one wants OP buffs.

You play a Ritualist, or so I'm assuming. Ritualists did quite good enough in PvE before their buff. They didn't need it because they did fine right?

Anyone with brains knows that the dervish is effective in PvE. The Ritualist was effective in PvE as well, and guess what? Necromancers did -their- job ten times better on every level, and spirit-spamming was a joke for PvE.

Now we can, in a sense, compare ritualists' need to be buffed to dervishes need to be buffed...

Ritualist: Necromancers did it better
Dervishes: Warriors and assassins to it much better.
Ritualists: Spirit spamming was useless, along with all those related skills
Dervishes: Enchantment juggling is useless, along with all those related skills.
Ritualists: only had a few good class-specific elites. (Spirit's strength?)
Dervishes: only has a few good class-specific elites. (Forms, which are pretty class specific, Arcane Zeal only usable in orders)

Now, -good enough- may be fine for you, but stop and understand that being outclassed by everything else makes other people rethink even bothering with the entire profession.

I know I for one took a look at Ritualists pre-buff and went "What's the point? If I wanted to do -that- I'd just make a necro.

and I look at dervishes and go "What's the point? I can just give my warrior or sin a scythe and be done with it."

and I'm SURE I'm not the only one who thinks like that.

Ritualists got buffed and they aren't OP, they are just more fun to play as and actually do good at what they are supposed to do. Anet has shown that they can do a good job at fixing a profession without breaking it, and I think that's really all we want out of a Dervish

tieing AoHM to mysticism would be a step in the right direction. The dervish skill buffs in the previous update kinda were, but not really since it's more abusable and wanted on secondary caster professions.

This. If you only look at the dervish itself, and not at it's competition, it's fine. It hits for nice numbers, has decent utility, etc. The problem is, why bother using it when you have these other classes that can do all the stuff it can, and do it better? Sure, it's not usually by much (maybe 10-30 dps or something), but still, why bother going with anything less than the best?

Arghore · Aug 17, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why bother going with anything less than the best?

Because Gwen cant marry us all ?

Because a Dervish looks way cooler?

Because it has those cool avatar forms that make everybody else jelous?

Because there are other things then DPS?

Because any other then dervish with a scyth looks silly?

Because you find yourself not worthy of the best ?

-----

10-30 dpSec is still much tho, means every 20sec you fail to kill a foe, which means as a necro i miss an energy buff every 20 sec while playing with a dervish

... tbh, the next time i see a war or sin with anything but a scyth i'll just kick him from my team aswell

...

But non joking ... I think sollution should be in the curve of the damage related to the skills, at 12attribute its simply to high ... scale this down and the dervish is fixed, as it now works like most other 2e profession skills, they are less efficient then being used as a 1e profession, mainly because the 1e prof can have more attributed points ..

Perhaps it could also do with a couple more skills in the Mysticism line, be it totally new skills or switched skills from the non main attribute..